Rainbow Everyone Everywhere All At Once With Charlie Sprinkman & Guests — TRANScript and Sound Credits
Join us for a special episode where host Calen Otto takes listeners back in time — traversing backyard woodlands and river rapids — to retrace bare-footed memories from each of our guests, woven together by illuminating storytelling. Charlie Sprinkman is featured on this episode among other trans, non-binary, and queer folks. This episode is an ode to the experiences of folks now in their mid 20’s and 30’s who grew up in rural spaces as queer children, found refuge in the outdoors, and have transmuted their unique experiences into the life-changing work that they do today.
Listen to the episode here on YouTube for captions.
Podcast Guest List
This episode features Charlie Sprinkman from Everywhere is Queer, Kaysn Kile from Rural Gone Rouge, Wesley Kile from By Wesley Photography, Rivers Wilder Green (musician), Dianni Hall from While She’s Away, and Charlie Alexander from TNET. Sound clip including pattrice jones from VINE Sanctuary.
Calen Otto: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Unruly Podcast. My name is Calen Otto, and I’m your host. Together, we’ll traverse all things travel. But I always talk about travel magic because it happens if you leave some space for it. Activism.
Speaker: So we can see that these ideas of oppressing animals develop very closely with our ideas of oppressing people and women.
Calen Otto: Alternative living.
Speaker: Who we are is nature. Who we are is creativity. Who we are is power. Who
Calen Otto: and more.
Speaker: The system hates a rebel. I just like to encourage everybody to keep being their beautiful, unique, individual selves.
Calen Otto: All right, let’s get unruly.
Hello, and welcome to episode number 73 of the Unruly Podcast. I’m so glad you’re here because we have an incredibly special episode for you today. I’ve never done anything like this Anything like it before on this show. [00:01:00] And this episode originally just started out as an interview with Charlie Sprinkman, the founder of Everywhere is Queer, this worldwide map of queer owned businesses.
But when I heard other people talk about Charlie, I heard the word community a lot. And so it got me thinking because I have my book and business on Charlie’s app and I have personal connections to other people who have their businesses that they have poured their heart and soul into on Charlie’s Map.
So I thought, how can we make this a more community based episode? To do so, I pulled in different voices from across the map. So in this episode, you’re not only going to be transported to different locations, but we are going to send you back in time. I’m so thankful for all of the people who came together in this episode to share their memories, feelings, and stories, and I hope that you, as a listener, are there laughing, crying, and remembering right along with us.
Charlie S: My name’s Charlie. I use he, [00:02:00] they pronouns. Welcome them both in exchangeably, in exchangeably. Wow, that was um, um, and I am based in Portland, Oregon, and I am the founder of Everywhere is Queer. which is now a free app on iOS and Android based around a worldwide map of queer owned businesses.
Calen Otto: Woo, which we are going to get into today.
I’m especially excited about this because obviously on this podcast, we talk about travel a lot and you’ve created this beautiful platform where people can support queer owned businesses or just make more queer community along the way, which is incredible. So my, uh, surprise question for you, cause every guest gets their surprise question is, have you ever started another business that failed?
And if not, have you ever had another business idea that you’re like, this is just too much.
Charlie S: Um, well, [00:03:00] yes and no. I haven’t really brought another business to like full on market. Like, I haven’t like full on pursued it. But I mean in fourth grade I was bedazzling pens and I was selling those for 25 cents and I think I was doing pretty goddamn well.
So, um, gosh, signs that I was gay, you know, back then.
Calen Otto: There are things that many of us can relate to in childhood, like passing notes while the teacher was writing on the chalkboard, or, in Charlie’s case, making business deals. But I know that where you grow up impacts how you grow up. And Charlie grew up in Wisconsin. I wanted to know what that was like as a queer little kid.
Charlie S: unfortunately, amongst, I mean, there are millions and millions of people being raised within these communities today, but, um, I Raised very conservative, very Catholic. Um, so queerness wasn’t even an ounce of [00:04:00] conversation in any day life. Um, and so, uh, yeah, I mean, every single day I was like, I’m straight.
I’m straight. I’ll wake up straight tomorrow. I’ll wake up straight tomorrow. I’ll wake up straight tomorrow for eight years of my life from when basically I was like, I think I’m gay. College, you know? And so, yeah, I grew up in small town, Wisconsin.
Calen Otto: When you talk about small towns and Catholicism, of course, church camp comes up.
Here’s where we meet our second voice in this conversation. Rivers Wilder Green, who’s now based in Los Angeles. She recounts her experiences at church camp and how it was one of the first times she really had to stand up and use her own voice.
Rivers: So I grew up in the Catholic Church. My entire family is Italian Catholic Tradition.
And so I went to Catholic Church my whole life. I was an altar boy. I was a [00:05:00] catechist. I received all the sacraments. Um, I joined like the high school youth, youth group. And um, during youth group we were sent to a um, um, Like a convention, like church camp in Dayton, Ohio. And me and a few others were sent to a women’s center that was run by Christians.
And during that time I was asked to tear out pages about birth control from the women’s magazines that were in the waiting room. And even as like a 14, 15 year old, I had this visceral reaction to being like, That’s fucking bullshit. Like, the women here, of anybody, need to have access to information about birth control.
And so I refused. And I brought it up, um, to not only my superiors with the camp, but the people at the, um, At the Women’s [00:06:00] Center, and that was, like, one of the first times I really had to exercise my voice as a young person. I do think that, like, the majority of my church camp stuff experience, It’s, like, was about volunteerism, which I think is really powerful.
As a young adult, I did a lot of political organizing, and though it wasn’t through my church, we would often rely on churches, like with the Obama campaign, um, going to a lot of black churches in the South and, like, helping organize voters. And so I just think, um, it’s not all bad, even though. I don’t spend any time with the Catholic Church any longer.
Okay. Also, as an adult, I want to say, like, the Unitarian, uh, folks, Unitarian churchgoers, or whatever, they are always at the good political advocacy events, so I just wanted to shout out the UUs, Unitarian Universalists, for, like, Having their politics match their, uh, beliefs.[00:07:00]
Charlie S: Like I didn’t have any representation. I have zero, uh, out aunts, uncles, cousins, family, friends, no one. So I didn’t have any representation and, you know, social media wasn’t quite a thing. It was like just becoming a thing, you know?
Calen Otto: Right.
Charlie S: And so, um, I didn’t really like, I don’t recall as a kid and I don’t know how old you are.
I’m I didn’t like run to the internet to like find queer people at that time in my life.
Calen Otto: I don’t think it was a thing because I just turned 28 and yeah, it wasn’t a thing how people can go online and find really quick community now and feel like they have friends even when they’re miles away. It’s like, Yeah.
Oh, did I find community in a book that I was reading or an audio book I’m listening to in the car? Probably not when it comes to queerness, so it really leaves you in this vacuum.
Charlie S: Yeah, I grew up [00:08:00] on like two acres of land and so my backyard was just like, And so I just remember going out and being like so creative out in the woods and stuff like that.
And I’m so grateful for that. You know, I really had a lot of my childhood outside, which was amazing.
Calen Otto: While there was no internet to turn to in our childhoods, some of us found comfort and belonging in nature. If you listen to episode number 72 with Patrice Jones, Patrice talks about doing this even in a very urban setting. But here we introduce our guest number three. Deani Hall is a digital nomad, and I couldn’t agree with her more when she talked about the perks of growing up without the internet.
Dianni: I feel really privileged to have grown up in a time when phones didn’t really exist. I think I got my first cell phone when I was in fourth grade, and it was like a little flip phone. So I couldn’t do anything besides, like, [00:09:00] call on it and maybe send a few text messages. And in fourth grade, you’re like, what, 10 years old?
So I think a lot of my childhood I spent outside. When it comes to her current love for nature, she adds So I don’t know if there was anything that specifically inspired it, but just there being nothing else to do. Like I know of course TV was a thing, but I remember spending a lot of time riding bikes and I remember spending a lot of time like playing survivor outside or like imaginary games that we were camping or that we had to survive or that we were like on a boat and playing with rocks and mud and grass and like using our imaginations.
Calen Otto: Our next guest, Kasyn Kile, grew up in rural Tennessee and still lives there to this day. [00:10:00] They talk about what it was like navigating gender living in the South.
Kaysn: So, I didn’t come out to myself, um, until I was 22. but I remember a lot of things growing up when I was clearly trying to break the mold and I would have came out sooner had I had more of an understanding if there was more, maybe more representation and I had the proper language to describe what I was feeling.
yeah, I remember being a kid, and I just thought I was a boy. I didn’t, I didn’t even understand why anyone thought I was anything but a boy. And I was really lucky, a lot of people, um, a lot of family members, they didn’t, Try to correct me or at least this is how I remember it. They [00:11:00] didn’t try to force anything different on me.
They let me Do what made me happy? and When I was really young I would I would hang out with all the little boys who in the summertime They weren’t wearing shirts and neither was I because I hadn’t developed anything. And so my family just let me So there’s like pictures of me and some family friends We were like in a backyard band and I’m just like drumming with no shirt on.
I look like, I look like a little boy. and that’s what I thought I was.
Until I made a friend. who she was a really good friend to me, but she told me that that wasn’t right. And would kind of dress me up and like act like I was a doll. And she would dress me in girls clothes and like put on performances and tell me this is how I’m supposed to act. And like, she would train me how to be a girl.
I firmly believe that had that not happened, [00:12:00] Or maybe, I’m sure that someone else would have intervened, uh, would have, would have said something if she hadn’t. Um, but had no one stepped in, I think I would have found myself a lot sooner.
Calen Otto: While Kaysn was drumming, Rivers was singing.
Rivers: Whenever I was in a music or singing class, like choir, there really isn’t the pressure to be gender performative.
I think with singing, you just have to sing well. And so I think that finding my voice in choir was like the surefire way to feel comfortable and then also make friends. Cause I, always got praised for singing and Even though they would split us up, like boys were tenors and basses and girls were soprano and alto, there’d always be gender bending, like girls who could sing super low and boys who could sing super [00:13:00] high.
And that was the coolest way.
Calen Otto: To make friends as a young person, that is. Now we’ll bounce back over to Charlie, who, present day, works closely with queer youth. I
Charlie S: mean, ever since I’ve come out, which was in my junior year of college, I have lived in Boulder, Colorado, Bend, Oregon, like spaces that are just very outdoorsy and have so much access to such beautiful nature and stuff.
And so, yeah, I mean, I Finding those queer communities in those spaces and going into the outdoors with them like going skiing with queer people is just like some of my favorite times, you know, so.
Calen Otto: Yes, which we’re gonna talk about because I want to just hear from you like how to make queer community as adult because I know it’s scary sometimes making friends as an adult but I also know that you have volunteered at this camp for [00:14:00] queer youth and worked there and I’m wondering what perspective you have.
Working with the youth, because you were a queer child, and you found a lot of comfort in the outdoors. How can you use that experience to help kids now?
Charlie S: Yeah, so yeah, Brave Trails is the queer youth leadership camp. check it out, it’s absolutely amazing. Um, 12 to 18 year old youth, they bring in people from all over the world, so you don’t have to live in California.
Um, but just being with those youth, I mean, I can’t believe, and I don’t know if this is like queer specific, because these are all queer kids, but they’re such little activists, all of them having conversations about intersectionality and how like it needs to exist in every single space. And I’m like, Yeah.
You are 13 years old and, like, having a deeper conversation than my thesis was in college, you know? Like, these kids, I [00:15:00] mean, I think you might relate, but, like, as a queer person, we did, I, I feel like I, like, internalized slash, had so many thoughts, by myself as a kid and just, like, in my head, you know?
Like, so many scenarios were played around and, like, so many thoughts. These kids just are so creative and just really passionate. It’s incredible. There’s also a very sad side to a lot of the kids though. I mean, I think it’s like, don’t quote me on this, but a significant amount are on antidepressants at 12 to 18 years old, you know.
Calen Otto: And what’s, how can you help them? Maybe not through that because there’s not really a cure for our society, but how are you there for them during the camp?
Charlie S: Yeah, I mean just being an adult and like telling them I started a business and I work for myself like they are like just in awe that like a queer person can do that.
You know, cause they [00:16:00] just think that like, I mean, they know that queer people can exist in really amazing jobs and high up in organizations and stuff, but they don’t see that, I feel like on the day to day and stuff. So just the, just being my true, like authentic self as a 27 year old, you know, telling them, like, I do have a partner and they’re like, what, you have a partner, you know, like it’s just, is it just telling them that like, I’m just a normal human.
That is dating, that has a partner, that has a job, and like, for them they just like, sometimes it’s really hard for them to see that, just like, normal life that I had, you know?
Calen Otto: And imagine a future where you’re like, stable, you’re thriving, you have community. Yeah. I imagine that that could be hard for youth.
It’s weird because on one side they have the internet so you can see so much, but on the other side you’re still having this opposite, for some people, lived experience. And so I imagine it’s a bit confusing. Yeah.
Charlie S: [00:17:00] Totally, and most of the kids at this camp are trans, uh, or non binary, and so, God, just so much of my heart for them, because they come from Texas, they come from Florida, they come from, I mean, I truly believe that every state is pretty much the gosh darn same outside of the metropolitan cities.
So, I mean, I just think about these kids that live in rural America, which, I mean, rural America equates to 60 million people about, so, I mean, there’s just so many people that don’t quite get to have that in person is what I’m saying. Right. They could have the internet, but they don’t get to have that in person community or opportunity for it, you know?
Calen Otto: Talking about queer people in rural areas requires a lot of nuance, because on one hand, rural spaces are queer. There are queer people there who are building community and enjoying life and organizing together. And on the other hand, a lot of struggle can come with that. One of my favorite books that a [00:18:00] good friend let me borrow is called Electric Dirt.
a celebration of queer voices and identities from Appalachia and the South. It’s by Queer Appalachia, and it speaks so well to this theme. It’s full of pictures, poems, and personal essays. But beyond the pages, I’m going to introduce another guest to you, Wesley Kyle, who grew up in Sweetwater, Tennessee, and still lives there to this day.
Wesley: I would like to begin by saying that I didn’t really completely realize my queerness, uh, until adulthood. Um, growing up, you know, all throughout my life, I had, like, questioned, if I was queer within myself. But, my family is extremely homophobic, or at least my dad is. and he was very clear, that queerness [00:19:00] was not welcomed in, in my family.
I was not allowed to be queer. he would tell me that if I ever came home with a boy, that I would be disowned and never allowed home again. so naturally, uh, that’s not really something that, I thought to be a viable option for me. Anytime that I did, wonder about whether or not I was queer, um, or if I was attracted, you know, to a boy, I would just kind of suppress that, tell myself like, Oh, you know, this isn’t, that’s not what’s going on.
That can’t be what’s going on. but you know, looking back, I, have been queer for my entire life. I just didn’t really get a chance to express that or to explore that.
Calen Otto: People often say to me, Oh, I could never live in the country, or I could never live in the South. [00:20:00] And that’s because there’s a certain stigma around rural spaces in the U. S. And sometimes that’s for good reason. But there’s a deep and vibrant history here of queer people organizing and fighting back against oppression.
This has bloomed into something that feels really special to be part of today.
Wesley: It feels like with my queer peers, I feel like a closer sense of community than I feel like I would if I were in a more urban area, just because It is, uh, sort of like trauma bonding, there, there is a, uh, definite, you know, pretty strong stigma around queerness in, in rural spaces. And, I think that, that kind of brings people together.
Yeah, it makes it feel like any time that you are around a queer person in a rural space, it [00:21:00]just automatically feels that much safer because you know that they’ve suffered through, you know, many of the same hardships that you have and you kind of feel, more seen, whenever you are able to find that, Diamond in the rough, I guess.
Rivers: Yeah, that’s really tricky. Like, we associate, like, ruralism with, like, all of the worst politics, but that’s really not true. I think some of the raddest political activists I meet live and work in rural spaces. And, you know, specific to me, I grew up in Virginia. We’re close neighbors with West Virginia and Appalachia.
And I went to school in Southwest Virginia, like close to the Tennessee border, and they have a long history of like radical activism. I think the danger sometimes comes with traveling, but I think there’s a lot of misconception about that. You know, we have this horror movie trope in the Americas [00:22:00] of like, city folks getting, you know, fucked up, going into the woods, and really it’s not actually how life is, you know?
Like, uh, you go into the woods and like, it’s like propaganda for civilization, right? That’s what these horror movies are. And the reality is like You’re more likely to get help with a flat tire than you are, you know, like fucking stabbed to death in the woods by, a quote unquote, like, hillbilly.
But I do think it’s important to recognize the towns and communities that can Help or be a safe haven for queer people because like I know for me like I’m Italian my whole life revolves around food, and I want to know like the queer hippie cafe No matter what state I’m in and they’re there all of these small towns have some of the cutest bookstores and independent cinema and like you know [00:23:00]vegan hippie haunts and like You know We need to be replenished in the outdoors.
And I’m happy to see so many queer, communities get more and more attention, especially like, I feel like there’s this like, lesbian, um, queer femme, uh, sanctuary owner, like, trope that’s actually true. And like, that’s so exciting. You know, it’s like, if you can find an animal sanctuary, the f*ggots, the F slurs are there too.
Hello.
Calen Otto: Another sort of trope that we see are queer kids being sent to religious camps or camps meant to change their sexuality, only to have them affirmed even more. This is what Charlie and I’s conversation came back to as we continued to reminisce on childhood experiences in the [00:24:00]outdoors.
Charlie S: I went to Young Life Camp, if you know what that is.
Calen Otto: A church camp, right? Yeah, it’s like
Charlie S: a Christian super, super homophobic camp. Um, As a kiddo, I was just like a wild child, like ADHD, like running around, like, yeah, just like trying not to like, oh yeah, I like that girl, you know, she’s like, oh she’s real cute.
Calen Otto: While one Charlie was running around feral at a young life camp in Wisconsin, over a thousand miles away, another Charlie was having a completely different experience. Here’s Charlie Alexander, based in Albuquerque, New Mexico, on how church camp made them queer.
Charlie A: Yes, I went to church camp pretty much every summer that I could. [00:25:00] And, Yeah, I actually really loved church camp. I had a really bad childhood, so I loved going to church camp. That was the only time I ever traveled. I think it definitely impacted me in a positive way overall because I did get to go and do things that I really wanted to do.
Which was like meet new people, be out in the woods, go away from my home. That was very, very terrible at the time. And I also kind of learned that, and it’s something that I hold close now, is that you know, when we all can gather around like a shared ideal or a shared Belief or whatever, that there is something really powerful about that.
There’s something almost transcendental about everyone gathering and really believing in the same thing. We can, create change within one another and create change within ourselves and also have a really fun time doing it.[00:26:00]
I loved hanging out with other girls. Frankly, you know, like I said, it did kind of. Make me realize that I’m definitely queer. Not that anything salacious ever happened. I certainly at the time wished that it had, but unfortunately it did not. I just had a regular church camp experience, but I did know about lots of different goings on that were quite, uh, salacious.
Obviously now, you know, looking back on it, of course, there’s a lot of trauma due to the fact that church camp is. Church and it is religious I’ve definitely known I was queer since I was in kindergarten But I like really fully realized it when I was staying with a bunch of girls in one room and we were all in bunk beds like laying right next to each other and talking and it’s like You know, there were like a couple [00:27:00] people that everyone kind of suspected were together And it was just like I don’t know like that’s definitely where I kind of like realized I was queer like fully, fully, like to the, to that extent of like fully knowing.
And, so there is something very traumatizing about having this What felt like a safe space for me, away from my very traumatic, abusive, neglectful home, that that felt like a really safe space, but it actually wasn’t in a lot of ways. It was a place where I also learned how to repress that queerness and repress who I truly was.
And, my sexuality, and all of that, so. And my gender, of course. So, yeah, it was, it was both some of the most wonderful experiences of my childhood, and also some of the, the worst, when I really think about it.
Calen Otto: If I think back [00:28:00] to my own personal childhood memories at camp, some of my favorite times were romping through the woods, getting out on the lake in a kayak, or simply listening to the sound of all the crickets and the critters at night before I fell asleep. As kids, I think we get to experience nature a little bit differently.
There were no phones, at least in my time, when I was a child playing outside to be distracted by. No emails to catch up on. And I was really just curious about everything around me. I got to take it in without any distractions. And I think that is the magic of camp. As adults, our relationship with nature starts to change.
And that’s what we’re going to explore now.
We hear the words, nature is queer a lot. And to you and I it’s like, duh. But for anyone listening who doesn’t understand that, can you expand on that? What does that mean to you?
Charlie S: We’ll follow Patti [00:29:00] Gonia and just listen to her content. Patti’s a good friend of mine, but she posts so much about actually how nature is queer, like the literal science of nature.
I’m gonna answer it more just on the behalf of, like, Nature doesn’t judge your queerness, you know? You can exist as your most authentic self in nature.
Dianni: In the nature of the word, of course we’ve taken this word queer and kind of have owned it as people that are part of the LGBTQ community. We’ve taken ownership of this word queer. And, but queer by like definition is Transcribed to be strange or odd. So if we’re taking the word queer at its meaning and you look at nature, it’s so absolutely [00:30:00] reflects that.
And in a really beautiful way, it’s not perfect. It’s not perfect symmetry. You look at trees and each individual one is different. You look at animals and each individual one is different. You look at all these aspects of nature and It is odd. It’s not perfect, but it’s still incredibly beautiful. And that can be, you know, a metaphor for, for human bodies in the way that it reflects, you know, our bodies.
But also, I think it’s an example of our queerness, where Maybe it’s strange and odd to those in society who don’t understand it, but it’s still so beautiful. Our queerness is so beautiful, and it is reflected back to us in nature.
Rivers: Okay, nature is so fucking queer. Let’s start off with plants. A lot of plants don’t require sex to [00:31:00] reproduce. In fact, they don’t even require like partnerships between different plants. I’m not even on top of my fungi mycelium game, but I know that their sex and reproduction is so much different than humans.
The idea of like binary gender is not true in the plant or the animal kingdom at all. We know coral, Reef fish will, you know, change gender based on their population’s needs, or the water temperature, or the fucking lunar calendar. Like, girls, you’ll be, if you’re a clown fish, you’ll be a man and a woman before you die.
If you’re a parrot fish, you’ll be a man or a woman before you die. We know these snails that, reproduce by sitting on each other’s backs in these long sh Like a ribbon of snails, like a ladder of snails. And the bottom snail is a female. And then once she dies, the next snail, then she’s got all these men on her back.
And then the next snail that’s a man, turns into the female and he’s the bottom bitch, you know, head bitch boss snail. Like, it’s, [00:32:00] nature’s so queer. And also queer sex is everywhere in nature. Like giraffes. Dolphins, whales, like, they’re all fucking each other. Sheep, we got the penguins, nature is queer as fuck.
And it’s also not white. It’s the opposite of white and hetero. Nature, nature’s a rainbow and she’s green and brown.
Charlie A: Of course nature is queer. Everything is queer. I actually personally don’t think anyone is like 100 percent straight. I think there’s a lot of queerness that due to a lot of different factors, we’ve really kind of forced people to Kind of be in one box or another and unfortunately the safer more You know socially acceptable box is to be straight[00:33:00]
Calen Otto: I happen to agree with Charlie on that one. We came from nature like everyone else And everything else, and it is inherently queer. It is odd and strange and wondrous all at once and in the beyond human world, gender as we’ve created it and as we know, it doesn’t exist. Even if we use gendered terms to describe other plants and animals in what’s now called the United States, and in most cultures around the world, we’re led to believe from birth that we are straight and that we are cisgender.
And there’s so much conditioning that we’ll have to pick through our whole lives. Most people that I know have never even stopped to consider their own gender, or even understand what gender is, even though they participated and uphold gender standards. So why is the concept that nature is queer something worth talking about?
For some, they see themselves affirmed and [00:34:00] reflected in the natural world that they came from around them. For others, It unravels the idea that homosexuality is unnatural, but listening to Patrice Jones talk about this subject in our last podcast episode really changed things for me. Here’s what Patrice had to say.
pattrice: This presumption of heterosexuality among non human animals is so strong. And I kept trying to break up these boyfriends.
Calen Otto: The boyfriends that jones is referencing are two ducks who were rescued by Vine Sanctuary, a refuge for farmed animals that was co-founded by Patrice. In episode number 72, Jones tells the story of these two ducks who were thought to be fighting and were separated from each other. Each time that they were separated, they would find their way back to each other, even though the journey was long [00:35:00] and difficult to make.
One day, it suddenly hit jones that these two ducks were not fighting, but mating, and that they were in love.
pattrice: And so that really got me thinking about the degree to which animals, non human animals, are portrayed in nature documentaries, and Books and, um, other media as reproducing robots whose every behavior can be explained by the drive to get their genes into the next generation, right? And I realized that this was a perfect example of an intersection of two different forms of oppression.
Because, of course, to, to see animals in this way, um, is to, um, [00:36:00] Stereotype them, wrongly, and, and to stereotype them in a way that, uh, makes their abuse easier. Because of course if, if, um, if these are just reproducing robots, then, uh, so what if you stick them in a cage? But if you acknowledge that these are people who spend time together just because they like it.
Who have sex just for the fun of it. Who form pair bonds that last a lifetime. Who, um, those two ducks, by the way, did. Um, uh, and who might even adopt and raise children together. Then it becomes a little bit harder to justify locking them up in a, uh, a foie gras factory or a vivisection. But at the same time, this idea that every animal is, um, is a reproducing robot.
Well, that [00:37:00] also fosters the idea that, that homosexuality is unnatural. And so that hurts, uh, hurts, uh, gay and lesbian humans. And so darting then we made it a priority to, we considered our queering animal liberation project. And for the past more than 20 years now. We have fostered dialogues between queer and vegan activists, done everything that we can to elucidate these and other interactions between homophobia and speciesism, to try and understand why animal liberation and queer liberation are linked struggles that can energize and inform each other.
Calen Otto: So far we’ve heard how nature has been an incredible refuge for many of our guests as kids. It’s [00:38:00] even helped them foster friendships. But as an adult, making friends seems to get a little bit more awkward and a little bit trickier. So I asked Charlie how, in adulthood, he’s made like minded community. His advice is so helpful, even for those who are constantly traveling and living on the road.
Charlie S: I do have like queer serving community groups and You, as a queer, trans, or allied individual to find queer groups and like there’s so many hiking groups on my platform. So, search your area, try to find a queer hiking group or whatever it is, like queer biking groups. Like I’m so grateful to live in Portland and You name it, there’s a queer group doing it.
We’re at about 12, 000 organizations on our platform, and it’s just growing rapidly, over 100 applications a week. Even if I don’t post on social media, it’s so incredible. The word, people are talking about it, which is so [00:39:00] beautiful. and the more spaces that join, the more access queer and trans and allied individuals have opportunity to find community.
So my, my, what I say is use my platform, reach out to the organizations, and ask, hey, do you know how many queer things happening in, in, um, In the city. Do you want to hang out you? Do you want to be friends with me? I really push my users and like followers and everyone like reach out to the organizations connect with them get to know them Support them.
there’s just so many amazing queer people on my platform that are like really integrated with community their like spaces. And so like ask them, you know, I was just in rural Canada. I was in Rosslyn, Canada, skiing at red mountain. It’s a town of 4, 000 people. And I was like, I’m just going to pull up my platform.
Probably not a business in Rosslyn, Canada. You know, rural, like, rural Canada. There was one pin, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so incredible. It was a tattoo artist. I reached [00:40:00] out, and I was like, where should I go as a queer person in Rosslyn? And they were like, here, here, here, and here. And so I went here, here, here, and there, you know, and it was like, amazing.
They weren’t necessarily queer owned spaces, but in that tiny little town, they were able to tell me like, where queer people hang out.
Calen Otto: Everyone in this interview lives in different parts of the country or even the world and has completely different lifestyles. So I wanted to hear from our other guests, how they make friends as adults.
Dianni: So I love that interconnection of, Outdoor adventures, outdoor activities, and travel. And that’s how I’ve made friends as an adult. I don’t know if there’s any other way that other people have done it without having to like, travel across the world to do it. But, that’s been fun. That’s been my favorite way of just meeting people who [00:41:00] also really adore sunsets or sunrises and going on hikes to see those sunsets and sunrises.
And going on multi day treks through, you know, through Vietnam or through Laos. Doing different, like, motorbike loops and stopping every time we see amazing scenery. there’s just so many memories. And they’re always at the intersection of travel and outdoors.
Calen Otto: And Dianni was right. A lot of other adults do like to use travel as a way to make friends.
Even if they differ on favorite activities, as you’ll hear from Rivers Wilder Green.
Rivers: Also traveling. that’s the first thing I want to do, like, hike up a mountain, no thanks, um, go to the beach, or go to a waterfall, or go swimming, yes ma’am. So anybody that’s willing to do that in any country, we don’t have to share language. [00:42:00] We don’t have to understand each other. You know, like, take me to the waterfall, take me to the beach.
I love swimming. I love swimming. I love nude swimming. I love Rivers, lakes, streams, oceans. I like free diving. Like, I love scuba diving and snorkeling. That’s my favorite outdoor activity is snorkeling and swimming and Yeah, like you know what this when you’re in the water kind of like singing it’s like we don’t care about your gender.
Can you swim? Can you float? Can you blow bubbles? Can you dive to the bottom of the lake and get the fucking gunky mud? Can you spot the animal life around you and on the shore? It’s a great equalizer and yeah, anyone that’s down to swim, I don’t even have to like you. You don’t have to even make me laugh, but if you’re willing to give me a ride to the swimming hole, let’s go because we can get some potato chips [00:43:00] and fucking yerba mate on the way.
And I’m going to be, we’re going to be best friends by the end of it. Um, especially later in high school and after college. Well, in high school I grew up in a community with all these man made lakes and So many of the homes and townhomes on the lakes had dock boats. So we had this really cool dock boat culture and fresh water where like you would just get a bunch of snacks.
Back then I was like a drinker, bunch of like a cooler full of like drinks and just be on the dock boat all day in and out of the water, in and out, in and out, in and out. Pushing each other into the water, having the best time ever. And then, um, I also grew up near some pretty amazing waterfalls. And we had like a 60 foot jump into this river in Great Falls, Virginia.
And that was really cool. I was always the first person to jump. One time we did take my friend and his younger brother, who didn’t tell us they couldn’t swim, into the rapids. And it became like this rescue mission where my [00:44:00] brother and I, who were lifeguard and swim instructors, had to help our two friends.
Who didn’t divulge that they couldn’t swim. that shit was crazy.
I think the second, uh, answer is adventure. When I was younger, I was part of the Boy Scouts and I made friends that way. Cause you know, like when you’re swimming or. Backpacking or sailing, like the sense of adventure just like requires bravery and trying new things. And I think I really excelled because I didn’t have the same fears as my friends.
And, that was a really beautiful way to meet people. Um, same same, today, it’s music and the performing arts. Uh, I make pop music and perform at climate strikes and meeting activists. You know, music and adventure, still the same. When I am at a protest or [00:45:00] an activist event, the conversations are always great.
It’s super elevated, we’re talking about saving the planet, big ideas, being inclusive to all different types of people, and that’s where people really brighten up and show you their most beautiful thoughts. And so, those are my two favorite ways. I also want to say, as an adult, uh, coming to my veganism.
That is the main attractor in Friends, uh, cause it’s not just, it’s not something that I’m confused about anymore, unnecessary harm to animals is, uh, doesn’t make sense. And so, I really like that as a jumping off point for friendships, and I think my best adult friends are already there, and veganism’s the baseline.
We can talk about all the cool, imaginative, alternative futures to the left of veganism.[00:46:00]
Calen Otto: And on that note, it’s time to bring this show to a close. Our guests today have given us a glimpse into their childhood memories. which many of us collectively can relate to. We’ve gone to church camp, underwater worlds, rural parts of the south, and even to a sanctuary. Our navigators on this journey have taken all of those memories and experiences and integrated them to be the people that they are today and run the businesses that they’ve created.
So lastly, let’s hear from our guests about the important work that they do, as well as any important events, dates, or businesses that should be on your radar. Thank you so much for listening. We’re so happy to have you come along with us on this journey. Please take a moment to pause the show and share it with a loved one and then subscribe to the Unruly podcast, wherever you listen.
So that you don’t miss our next episode. Then you can rate and review the show so that important conversations like these will reach more people who need [00:47:00] them. I hope that you’re able to connect with our guests on today’s show and support their businesses. However you can, well, that’s all for me. Stay unruly.
At
CharlieS: everywheresqueer on Instagram and TikTok, everywheresqueer.com is free on iOS and Android, available globally. So please, please send to all your friends and community that want to support queer owned businesses. We have an entire online business, queer owned business section in app as well. It’s not just brick and mortar spaces.
You truly could find pretty much anything that you want from a queer owned business. Yeah, that’s pretty much it. Everywhere is queer is what the app is called. if you don’t have access to iOS or Android, you can access our map on our website. And it’s free. It’s, everything’s free. Um, and I’m going to keep it that way.
Wesley: Of course, [00:48:00] I’m a bit partial to, uh, Rural Gone Rogue on Instagram. that is my thing. incredible spouses, art Instagram, that’s their, that’s their business. They make, you know, a bunch of queer centric, rural. centric art and it’s beautiful and it’s important. I’m also a photographer. my name is, again, Wesley Kyle.
You can find me on, Facebook. It’s photos by Wesley. my website is by Wesley.co
Dianni: My name is Dianni Hall. I host the podcast while she’s away, where I help women and queer people, Travel and live their best lives traveling around the world in whatever way that looks for them. Queer businesses, I do just want to highlight Quouch as like a queer travel service.
Basically, if you’re a fellow traveler, Quouch is a platform for you to be able to couch surf, which [00:49:00] is like stay with people around the world for free. But couchsurfing does not always feel safe for queer people and so Quouch is couchsurfing but for queers
Charlie A: Well, my favorite queer business is of course TNET which stands for transgender non binary education and trainings I am the co owner of that business We do lots of trainings all about trans topics.
We make our trainings inclusive, and accessible, and very expansive, and they’re also very high quality. And we also create zines, I personally have written a lot of zines, we’re actually gonna release some more soon. We have bookmarks, we have stickers, we have patches, all kinds of cool stuff. Oh, we have the Trans Love Project, which is a documentary style video.
that features a You know, it features trans people in love and so we’re going to do a whole series of these but our first one is [00:50:00] about a polyamorous, uh queer and trans Relationship, so definitely check out trans education. net. That is our main website Remember that you know education is the foundation for liberation
Kaysn: I am an artist And I run Rural Gone Rogue, um, because I am from a rural area and I have gone rogue.
And then queer events coming up, me and my spouse Wesley and Elijah Sharp are organizing and Sweetwater Pride this year and we are so, so excited. It will be on June 15th. So if anybody, is able to come, you should totally come. We are going to have drag performances and live music. So many ways for people to just come and hang out, um, ways that you do not have to have any money.
You can just come and chill and be queer and be open and be happy and be surrounded by community for the [00:51:00] day.
Rivers: If you’re interested in me or my music or activism, my name is Rivers Wilder Green. My instagram handle is riversloveswimming, all one word. you know, I named myself, uh, kind of as a reaction to watching the Mad Max films and seeing all of these desert apocalypse ideas of the future.
I was like, what’s the opposite? So, Rivers, Wilder, Green came to me but also, definitely, steeped into the Pocahontas song just around the river bend and the hypo hypoc hypocrites, saying you never step in the same river twice because what’s been true of me and my activism and veganism and my friends and my queer friends is like we’re constantly changing and evolving and I think I scared my high school best friend when I came out to her shortly after, you know, admitting being queer and exploring that way.
I kind of blurted out without thinking, like, I hope I come out of a million closets before I’m dead. And they looked at me [00:52:00] like, Oh my god, what the fuck does that mean? But for me, you know, and the friends I have now that I’ve made kind of more as an adult, like, that’s what we’re doing. We’re coming out of a million classes before we die, and we’re kicking them down, and we’re gonna have fuckin rainbow face paint on, and our titties out.
Calen Otto: I am so glad that you joined me for today’s episode. If you want to learn more about the topic that we discussed today, head over to unrulytravel. com. If today’s conversation made you laugh or cry, or feel seen or inspired in any way, please take just 30 seconds to follow the show and rate and review it wherever you listen to podcasts.
Then, share this episode with a friend. I’ll see you next time. Stay unruly.[00:53:00]
Wesley: Nature is queer as hell. Always has been, always will be. And honestly, I love that for us.
Podcast Sound Effects
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